Curse

Saerden · Jun 09, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

so you're happy that they've rewarded you for not being any good at the game? The game is supposed to be tough...you're supposed to have to try things multiple times...you shouldn't be able to just rush your way through the game.

hehe i had to smile

being good at a game = start bot, go out, hope you dont get banned

No really, i can understand that the PvE may seem easy to some. A Hell difficuly might solve this.
Or filling every mission with mobs so that you no longer can see the ground.

Twilight Doll · Jun 09, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46

From reading a thread such as this one, I can only imagine the type of pressure built up for the developers. Every time they release a patch, I'm sure they conduct orderly discussion and execution.

I think the new SoC system implementation was a wonderful idea. In response to those that think it takes away the sense of accomplishment, (I could be totally off on this but after thinking about it,) I think it has something to do with insecurity in one way or another. You liked being one of the few who had the elite skill and now it's going to be just as easy for the rest to capture the skill. I think that it isn't the same as just allowing you to purchase the skill through a skill trainer. You still have to go through the trouble of getting to the target's location and decease the boss. As you know having an elite skill has it advantages. Does it suck now that there is a higher risk that you run into an opponent who has one that you consider uber and now is a challenge to you? If the game initially had this system for SoC, I'm sure we would have far many less complainers. People just don't like change sometimes whether it's good or bad because of a convenience issue. For those who just like to PvE, I don't know what to say other than the game was largely based on PvP as others have stated. I do enjoy both aspects of the game.

I personally think Anet is doing a wonderful job. The game has only been officially out for a litte over a month and they've already made numerous tweaks and changes. It'll be a matter of time before things start to iron out. Any changes to the game can always be adjusted. You can only expect for them to test, apply, and gather data (the players), unless you'd rather have no change. But that's what we're all here for right? To express our opinion. I respect everyone's opinions however I do not agree with some.

Envy · Jun 09, 2005, 04:13 PM // 16:13

First off I read every post here. Alot of the hurray's I just don't understand. How is increasing monster diifficulty and making drops less reducing the grind exactly? It's not. It adds more. Now I have to work 10 times as hard to unlock stupid runes that earlier farmers got off of easy street. I have to work 20 times harder to be able to afford things like weapons I must buy off people now because they don't drop. Not to mention it will ALWAYS be the same farmers selling them for a huge price since the made their million plat before all the nerfs.

Every single thing that has come out over the patches has benefitted the early farmers and screwed the new players. I could have bought half the superior runes in Lions arch for the same amount as the new merchants. I still can't afford 80k for a superior vigor rune. The price of sigils is still 60k + even after the "sigil" patch. Runes will now sell unidentified from the "farmers" who unlocked them all early for more then the npc merchant sells regular ones for.

Want to truly "reduce the grind and farmers" Arena Net? Make drops 10X more common. That will kill all the insane prices of farmers plus make it easy to unlock all the junk for pvp characters. There you go. Problem fixed and we can all get on with our pvp. No need to farm anymore because everything will be common.

I just finished Iron Mines and Thunderhead Keep with a full group of players. I didnt see not 1 yellow fall and only saw 1 purple armor. The 2 blues I got, yes 2 blues in 2 missions, were both crap I could have gotten outside of lions arch. WOW this is so much better! I only have to run through missions 50 times now to have a chance at unlocking a major rune!

Okra · Jun 09, 2005, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Nice patch, I guess.

Really pisses me off that I did Galrath just last weekend, and now they've upped it to 4000 xp. Lame. Would be nice to get a chunk of that to get another attribute point.

My suggestion: allow players that have already done that quest to be able to do Villiany of Galrath again.
If that is in the next patch, I would be impressed.

I'm not holding my breath.

Algren Cole · Jun 09, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

hehe i had to smile

being good at a game = start bot, go out, hope you dont get banned

No really, i can understand that the PvE may seem easy to some. A Hell difficuly might solve this.
Or filling every mission with mobs so that you no longer can see the ground.

you keep talking about bots...who cares if people that want to cheat have an easy time with the game...they're cheating, IT'LL NEVER BE DIFFICULT FOR THEM....I'm talking about the people that actually want to play it.

I'm going back to console....online games aren't worth the money.

Sir Skullcrasher · Jun 09, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

i wish i can come to town and start a huge war with other players!! or join the darkside of the charrs

Pyrthas · Jun 09, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobum

This is exactly what I don't understand. (and this isn't directed at you personally Moo)

Isn't the idea about build your character to put in a little work, time and effort and "building your character"? If someone can put in 3 hours a day and you only 2, how is it unfair that he may find better stuff or have more experience than you? If you don't want to put in any time to build a good character then why not play something like Unreal Tournament? You don't have to spend any time there to get an uber character with uber weapons. I just don't get it.

These are probably the same people who, when they were little kids, had to be given a gift at their siblings birthday party to keep them quiet because "Well if Johnny is getting presents then I want one too - that's not fair...."

See, Guild Wars is supposed to be a game in which you don't have to grind to be good. You don't have to put in lots of time to be good. You have to be good to be good. You have to have skill to be good. That's the whole point of trying to build a game without the grind; the fun is supposed to come from the gameplay itself (and strategy revolving around that gameplay).

Why not play something like UT? Because the gameplay in GW is very different. But GW shares a lot more with games like UT than it does with games like WoW. A whole lot. In GW, effectiveness is supposed to be about skill (skill in skill selection, skill in team building, skill in strategy and tactics), not about time devoted to the game. Of course, time spent playing means more experience with the game, which often translates into higher skill, but it isn't anything like "more time = better chance of getting good items = more effective character." Or at least, that's not what it's supposed to be like.

Lymix · Jun 09, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

I would have to agree with the minority on the issue of new changes to the Signet of Capture. Making elite skills difficult to aquire from bosses is what made them "elite". Now that you're able to pick the one you want off of the mob's lifeless body makes them just as easy to aquire as if you learned them from a Skills trainer. Time to rename them from "Elite" to something more appropriate.

nechronius · Jun 09, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Reduction of the grind is a POSITIVE thing. Not having to lather, rinse, repeat every boss to attain that elusive skill is a GOOD thing. Spend your hours elsewhere, like crafting a new, oddball but interesting character or perfecting your PvP game.

People who complain about the new capture system being too easy have probably already invested dozens, if not hundreds, of hours grinding to attain a handful of elite skills. Now you begrudge the rest who either don't have the Time or energy to spend doing the same thing over and over to attain the same thing you have. It's called sour grapes, so get over it. Or gather up your toys, get out of the playground, and go home.

NilePenguin · Jun 09, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Lymix, one question: Ever tried to capture the mesmer skill 'echo' before the changes?

One of the following things would happen, always:
- The mob dies to the Jade Bows right next to them;
- The mob dies to your henchies before casting Echo;
- The mob dies to the Ether Seal;
- The mob dies even before you arrive, to god-knows-what;
- You die because you try to get the mob away from the Jades and the Ether tower;
- You die because you ignore the jades and run towards the mob as soon as possible, hoping to catch an early Echo.

It was a tedious hell. There's more skills that were hell to get, for mutliple reason (Battle Rage, anyone?). Besides, how much fun is it to be forced to try a million times to find and capture from a single mob, just to be competitive in PvP?

Algren Cole · Jun 09, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechronius

Reduction of the grind is a POSITIVE thing. Not having to lather, rinse, repeat every boss to attain that elusive skill is a GOOD thing. Spend your hours elsewhere, like crafting a new, oddball but interesting character or perfecting your PvP game.

People who complain about the new capture system being too easy have probably already invested dozens, if not hundreds, of hours grinding to attain a handful of elite skills. Now you begrudge the rest who either don't have the Time or energy to spend doing the same thing over and over to attain the same thing you have. It's called sour grapes, so get over it. Or gather up your toys, get out of the playground, and go home.

I'm only a level 13....I'm not even 1/3 of the way through the game yet....I still believe this patch was a bad fix....aimed at appeasing the players who want instant gratification.

however, I'm not going to say that it will change the game play dynamics enough to make me not like the game...I'm just saying that at this early stage of the game...it doesn't look as though I'll enjoy the game for much longer. Getting an elite skill simply by doing my given task...doesn't make the skill elite. If everyone has it....how is it elite?

dansamy · Jun 09, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblyfish

Grab some friends and go compete in the Tournament. Riches, fame and fun beyond your wildest dreams await you. Now don't say you'd rather farm than do that.

Bull$#it! For weeks we've all heard the PvPers complain that there is no monetary reward in the Tombs other than the Sigil drop, and those prices are dropping. Nevermind the fact that you can play Tombs for hours without winning one darn thing that will net you the gold you need to pay for 15 plat armor.

nechronius · Jun 09, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

I'm only a level 13....I'm not even 1/3 of the way through the game yet....I still believe this patch was a bad fix....aimed at appeasing the players who want instant gratification.

however, I'm not going to say that it will change the game play dynamics enough to make me not like the game...I'm just saying that at this early stage of the game...it doesn't look as though I'll enjoy the game for much longer. Getting an elite skill simply by doing my given task...doesn't make the skill elite. If everyone has it....how is it elite?

I have several characters going through the game. The highest is in the desert now moving toward ascension with the lowest in Lion's Arch. The game is certainly still challenging enough without having to repeat areas over and over to attain one skill. Some of the bosses are probably in out-of-the-way areas, maybe two warps away from the nearest town. There are plenty of skills out there you will need to unlock by taking a class you may not normally take.

I don't know where you're at now in the game, but at level 13 the odds are you haven't even seen your first elite skill in use yet by a boss. I'm actually surprised at your judgement of their new system without having tried it yet. That is, unless you have.

dansamy · Jun 09, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrthas

Here's the thing, though. GW was never supposed to be a game in which you were to spend countless hours striving to make your character the best it could be. It's supposed to be relatively easy to get things like elites and good weapons. Grinding for those improvements for your character is precisely the grind that Anet wants to get rid of.

Not really. You're supposed to be able to compete in PvE, too. I think that part of the problem is that people equate PvE and grinding. That's not what it's supposed to be in GW. You say that they need to be careful with changing PvE. I agree. But PvE content in GW isn't farming and getting better loot. PvE should be not entirely unlike PvP in GW; both depend a great deal on planning and not as much on how long you've spent hunting down the best stuff. Giving PvEers better stuff doesn't screw up Anet's vision any more than giving PvPers better stuff does, because in neither case is it supposed to be a peron's items/unlocked skills/unlocked runes that determines his or her success.

Requiring people to spend hours farming to get good stuff for PvE goes against Anet's concept of this game for exactly the same reason that requiring people to spend hours farming to get good stuff for PvP does. PvE and PvP are not suppoosed to be playstyles as distinct as people seem to want them to be.

Has this all been said before? Well, yeah, but it still doesn't seem to have sunk in. Also, I'm procrastinating.

But I've written way more than I should, so I'll stop.

Well that's just great that they don't want there to be a grind, but I have played the entire storyline without amassing the wealth needed to craft armor at 15 plat per piece. Much less having the crafting materials on top of the plat. If they don't want there to be a grind, then drops need increasing, not decreasing. Now, all they've done is make it harder for me to get the plat and materials I need to craft my last armor set.

Sekkira · Jun 09, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

It's not about people annoyed at this change for SoC because they felt like one of the special few who got elites. For one, I don't have ANY elites, and I'd still rather the old SoC system. Same with the rune trader. It was a nice addition and if it's the way the other dude said it is (it practically being the middle man instead of the "WTS X RUNE OF X X" all over the place), then I'm fine with it.

I have seen many of you say it yourself, that the runes and upgrades and such aren't really UBER as per say because the game is balanced. What is wrong with having things that give you even the slightest edge in PvP if you want to put the effort into it? Having all the runes, elites and weapon parts wont assure you victory at all. So what the hell is up with people pointing the finger and saying that the people who don't welcome this change are stuck in an old mentality? That's an old mentality in itself with this game.

Putting time and effort into PvP will increase your skill (possibly, you could just really suck) some faster then others. Putting time and effort into customising your character should also yield it's own rewards. As I said, putting uber everthing possible for your character on it will not assure you victory, it will give you the slightest edge. Of course someone with decent skill can use that edge to their advantage. If you're good at the game, your opponent with everything possible to make his character tougher/stronger will not even phase you.

Saerden · Jun 09, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lymix

I would have to agree with the minority on the issue of new changes to the Signet of Capture. Making elite skills difficult to aquire from bosses is what made them "elite". Now that you're able to pick the one you want off of the mob's lifeless body makes them just as easy to aquire as if you learned them from a Skills trainer. Time to rename them from "Elite" to something more appropriate.

Do the elite skills make you elite? If not, the label was wrong from the very beginning.

*edit: In GW, the unique item you and noone else has is the top spot on the ladder. If you want hard to get, elite rewards that affect pvp, and that can only a minority can attain, then its either you or us. Take over the game of leave. There will be no truce.

Sekkira · Jun 09, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by NilePenguin

Lymix, one question: Ever tried to capture the mesmer skill 'echo' before the changes?

One of the following things would happen, always:
- The mob dies to the Jade Bows right next to them;
- The mob dies to your henchies before casting Echo;
- The mob dies to the Ether Seal;
- The mob dies even before you arrive, to god-knows-what;
- You die because you try to get the mob away from the Jades and the Ether tower;
- You die because you ignore the jades and run towards the mob as soon as possible, hoping to catch an early Echo.

It was a tedious hell. There's more skills that were hell to get, for mutliple reason (Battle Rage, anyone?). Besides, how much fun is it to be forced to try a million times to find and capture from a single mob, just to be competitive in PvP?

"Hey, I'll just wander up to the lifeless body of this boss which was killed before I got here and cycle through his skills, hey look an elite! I'll take that."

gg wp

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechronius

People who complain about the new capture system being too easy have probably already invested dozens, if not hundreds, of hours grinding to attain a handful of elite skills.

And now that time and effort means nothing.

Quote:

Do the elite skills make you elite? If not, the label was wrong from the very beginning.

LMAO! Because what a skill is labelled, defines what you are right?

The skill is called elite, because the skill is elite. Not so any more though, now you shop through and grab what you want. Because we all know how uber tough bosses are right?

joeljermon · Jun 09, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

They're called elite because you can only have one in the skill bar, not because they were a pain to get. They've been called that since the early betas, when they were bought from trainers just like normal skills. And if you hadn't captured a single elite, then you can't really make a judgement on the new system. The old system was fundamentally flawed in many ways. For example, capturing stances was just a matter of spamming the SoC again and again.

Saerden · Jun 09, 2005, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeljermon

They're called elite because you can only have one in the skill bar, not because they were a pain to get.

Hey, thats true and makes sense, stop it.

15k armors are: unique (not everyone has them) and a pain to get (lots of gold if you were not farming). Happy now? Oh wait, they dont make you better at all. .. what a waste.

Lymix · Jun 09, 2005, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by NilePenguin

Lymix, one question: Ever tried to capture the mesmer skill 'echo' before the changes?

One of the following things would happen, always:
- The mob dies to the Jade Bows right next to them;
- The mob dies to your henchies before casting Echo;
- The mob dies to the Ether Seal;
- The mob dies even before you arrive, to god-knows-what;
- You die because you try to get the mob away from the Jades and the Ether tower;
- You die because you ignore the jades and run towards the mob as soon as possible, hoping to catch an early Echo.

It was a tedious hell. There's more skills that were hell to get, for mutliple reason (Battle Rage, anyone?). Besides, how much fun is it to be forced to try a million times to find and capture from a single mob, just to be competitive in PvP?

To answer your question, no haven't tried to capture that skill. Sounds like it was a real pain in the arse to get it.. but I imagine it felt really good when you finally DID capture that skill. It is called "Elite" for a reason. Or rather it was...

I'm very aware that there can be multiple ways to look at the changes that ANet decided to make to the SoC. Part of me is relieved that I won't have to try, try again to get that special skill like I did with Earth Shaker (I'm a hammer user).. Between my henchies killing the boss first, or the boss *using* the skill to knock me down and interupt my capture attempt, it was a real pain to get from him! But at the same time, part of me is saddened by the fact that these elite skills will now be commonplace by taking out the challenge of their acquisition.

That being said, I imagine opinions on this matter will be wide and diverse and I readily accept that not all will share this point of view.